It may seem an unlikely pairing: A law firm that is fighting to roll back clean water protections across the United States and a coalition of raft companies in Colorado that often train their guides to give interpretive talks on environmental preservation.
But last week the two found common cause when they filed a lawsuit against President Joe Biden and the Department of Labor. Their goal? To block an executive order that’s set to go into effect in January, which raises the minimum wage for raft guides and other workers on federal land to $15 an hour.
“They’re using resources and time and effort and money to fight this [minimum wage rule] rather than being a leader in creating a better life for their employees”
It didn’t take long for criticism to start rolling in. “Rafting company owners are teaming up with the people who actively destroy river ecosystems,” an environmental litigator and river guide wrote on Twitter, “to deny their working class, highly skilled, and certified guides a living wage. [They’re] literally employing the [people] running them out of business to avoid paying us a few more dollars an hour.”
According to the plaintiffs — Duke Bradford, owner of the rafting and zipline company Arkansas Valley Adventure, and the Colorado River Outfitters Association, a trade group representing around 50 river companies — Biden’s order is poised to upset the industry in Colorado and other states. Bradford said it could cause outfitters to raise prices or scale back multi-day offerings since outfitters would be required to start paying overtime pay under the new labor regulations.
The Pacific Legal Foundation (PLF), the tax-exempt law firm that filed the suit on behalf the river outfitters, has been bankrolled by the Koch brothers, ExxonMobil, the conservative Adolph Coors Foundation as well as executives in the tobacco, pharmaceutical and agricultural industries. The firm has fought to give more power to landlords during the pandemic, to end federal protections for endangered species, and to allow more pollution to enter American streams and rivers.
Patrick Parenteau, a professor at the Vermont Law School who specializes in environmental law, said PLF’s role as litigators is very narrow and almost always focused on anti-regulation issues.
“They’re really just an extension of industry,” Parenteau said. “They have a 501(c)(3) charitable status, but … their docket is exclusively representing the economic interests of regulated industries or landowners.”
Parenteau added PLF is in the Supreme Court right now arguing a case that, if successful, would reduce federal water quality protections in 70% of the waters of the U.S.
“Do they really care about water quality?” he said. “No, absolutely not.”
Bradford, who owns multiple recreation-related businesses and rentals throughout Colorado that received at least $2.8 million from the federal Paycheck Protection Program since 2020, acknowledged that PLF’s track record may not align completely with those of Arkansas Valley Adventure, which lists environmental awareness and education among its core values.
“I understand that they’ve taken on different issues over the years that may run contrary to our beliefs,” he said. “I can’t change what the Pacific group has done in the past … but that doesn’t mean that you don’t join forces when we all believe in a common good here.”
“There’s no defined IQ necessary to be on Twitter,” said David Costlow, executive director of the Colorado River Outfitters Association, referring to criticisms he characterized as “cheap shots.”
“[PLF has] a history of defending people against government overreach,” he said. “We had a situation where there was government overreach and the decision was made to work with Pacific Legal to prove our point.”
Both Bradford and Costlow said that a minimum wage increase for the outdoor industry should only come through Congress, not an executive order, and the lawsuit alleges Biden overstepped his authority when he reversed a Trump-era rule that exempted outfitters on public lands from federal wage standards.
But for current and former river guides throughout Colorado who support a pay bump for workers, the alliance between the raft companies and PLF is particularly disheartening.
Dan Robertson, who has a business background and has worked in multiple roles throughout the Colorado river rafting industry, said he has “tremendous respect” for the companies Bradford has built and for past advocacy efforts from the outfitters association.
“I’m just really, really disappointed that this is the fight they have picked and that they have chosen to do it this way,” he said. “They’re using resources and time and effort and money to fight this [minimum wage rule] rather than being a leader in creating a better life for their employees who are — besides the environment — the most important and vital asset that the industry has.”
River outfitters, in Robertson’s view, too often treat workers as commodities. Even guides with many years of experience on the Arkansas River and elsewhere live in vans, tents or bunkhouses, contributing to a high turnover rate and the continual loss of talent, both in terms of river-running qualifications and interpersonal skills.
“If your business model is contingent on paying sub-livable wages,” he said, “then it’s a really bad business model and it needs to change.”
PLF and the plaintiffs on the lawsuit have argued that the wage increase will ultimately hurt workers because it could force companies to cap guides’ schedules at 40 hours per week and could make it more difficult to provide raises to veteran guides.
“It’s nice to live in utopia,” Costlow said. “I’ve never been able to find utopia.”
Marshall Steinbaum, assistant professor of economics at the University of Utah, said that’s an argument you almost never hear from workers themselves. “There’s no sense in which raising the wages of workers harms workers,” he said.
What’s more, Biden’s executive order and the final rule issued by the Department of Labor last month point to research that minimum wage standards don’t always result in the cost increases that business opponents worry about.
“As a matter of labor economics, higher pay reduces turnover and aids retention of workers, so you have more experienced workers on the job,” Steinbaum said. “Labor costs don’t go up for employers as much as you would think, if the wages go up, because they don’t have to hire and retrain workers on such a high frequency…. And in general, we know that like workplace safety and wages are positively correlated.”
For Robertson, the former guide, even if some of the outfitters’ predictions about a $15 minimum wage bear out, that in itself says something important about how the industry is structured.
“If your business model is contingent on paying sub-livable wages,” he said, “then it’s a really bad business model and it needs to change.”
If your business can’t pay a living wage, you shouldn’t have a business, period. Grab your bootstraps buck-o.
“Conservatives” love to rail against welfare… while every business not paying a living wage is effectively on welfare subsidies. And don’t get me started on tax breaks and deregulation.
Do they pay “rent” to guide on federal lands?
But yeah this seems pretty shitty especially given the guy took a massive PPP loan to stay afloat (no pun intended).
“If your business model is contingent on paying sub-livable wages,” he said, “then it’s a really bad business model and it needs to change.”
And your business requires near free access to public lands/rivers …
And needs $2.8m in welfare.
Yeah, not exactly blowing me away by their business skills.
Over the last 30 years, I have gone on over 250 rafting trips of varying lengths all over the western US and Canada, including many in Colorado, some with AVA. This is probably about as many as anyone has as a customer. Over all of those trips, I have come to appreciate the importance of skilled guides in making those trips successful, safe, and fun. Experienced guides are these companies’ most valuable resource. It is very expensive and time-consuming to train new guides; I would think they would want to do everything they can to keep the ones that they have.
This is the kind of stuff that makes me wanna subscribe.
Really makes me not want to patronize either the raft companies or the guides. For the companies, pay up, but get rid of tipping. For the guides, you’re a professional recreationalist, and in exchange for the perk of doing every day what most do for fun, you don’t make as much. Also don’t forget that you’ll pay taxes on that wage increase, vs the cash tips you pocket and don’t report.
The monopolization of guiding permits is the biggest problem in the guiding world. Open that up, and let these guides run their own businesses and keep all the $.
What about this has anything to do with the guides that would elicit that response? Do you have any idea how much work goes into leading a multi-day rafting trip? If you’re upset that some people don’t claim all of their tips in order to offset their garbage hourly wages, then you must have an issue with pretty much every service worker out there.
As was mentioned above, if your business can’t pay a living wage to survive, then you’re effectively asking your employees to subsidize it for you. If that’s the case, then your business model is broken and you should probably find something else to do. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
Besides, any additional cost is going to just get passed on to the consumer. Living in a tourist town, I’m shocked at what tourists will pay for rafting trips, Jeep rentals, zip lines, hotels, terrible food, you name it. They wouldn’t blink an eye at a price increase.
Good points! It would be interesting to hear more from more of the Guides. When California pushed to change Uber & Lyft drivers into actual employees, there were a lot of drivers against it, even though on the surface it was sold as a wage increase. A lot liked the flexible hours and controlling how much they worked. There’s always unintended consequences. I don’t know the economics of the River Guide industry, but in retail the margins are very thin and wage increases translate into inflation for the consumers. I agree wages are often too low, but what’s their average take home with tips? There’s often more to the story.
Guides are paid per trip that they take. This for most companies breaks down to more than $15 an hour (at least in my experience) and they get tipped on top of that. The industry pays this way because it’s a very unique day-to-day and guides typically have free time between trips and take multiple trips a day. When guides do work outside of their trips they are paid an hourly wage that is minimum wage or higher depending on the company.
If companies had to change the way they pay it could potentially cause them to eliminate the option of overnights or raise the price significantly after paying overtime. Everyone should be able to experience overnight trips at an affordable price.
From what I understand This law is made for contractors operating on federal lands where as rafting companies are not contractors. They are permit holders that reside off of federal lands and take their trips on federal lands and have been sort of blanketed under this law. This is what I understand. Maybe I’m not completely right on this.
When you break it down I was paid more than $15/hour and then I was typically tipped well. I also had a lot on f freedom between my trips which I appreciated.
A lot of companies will also provide some sort of housing and camping options for free or next to nothing.
I’m not saying this is right. And I think contractors should be paid a living wage especially when they are protecting our lands. Maybe just some specifics of the law and who it includes should be worked out first.
Just from an inside point of view, I loved my job as guide. I was paid well and it was the greatest experience of my life and lead me to great opportunities.
And to say that these companies don’t care about the lands or the water quality is simply not true in the slightest. I have never met anyone on the river with that mentality and if they did they wouldn’t be welcome.
As someone who once worked for Duke Bradford, I can say that he absolutely does NOT pay $15/hour after averaged out, including tips. You are NOT allowed to mention anything about tips to your guests. I made $68 for a day trip which was me working from 7am-7pm (if not longer). And then we were lucky if we got tipped considering how many people don’t know to tip their Guides.
ALSO, we were charged a monthly fee in order to camp on their land. It was taken directly from our paychecks.
They also charged us over $600 just to train with them! (Which they hold ransom and “return” to you little by little if you return to them for multiple seasons)
Duke Bradford is a cheapskate and always has been, I’m glad the world is seeing him for what he is now.
Very good points! I think the issue is less about the $15 min wage and more about mandatory overtime pay which on a multi day trip would be crazy expensive for the outfitters and ultimately the end client. It would be nice if the permitting process was opened up to allow more guides the opportunity to run their own businesses
Could guides not set up as independent contractors and charge say fixed fee for the trip? Say $1000 for a 4 day trip or whatever it needs to be?
No, companies have to apply/ and or buy a permit to create a recreational guiding company. They limit them, for a number of reasons.
Guides also have to generally certify to become a guide, job training that does not pay the trainees. Sometimes come with free “room”/ rent (tent camping space really). Does not generally cover any meals, bills, transportation, other expenses -college tuition-, required First Aid and CPR certification, Wilderness First Responder Course (70 class hours, not just unpaid but paid for by the guide!), gear: own PFDs, helmets, paddles, appropriate river related clothing…
Getting to have a “recreational” job is usually great-yes- but you cannot eat “fun job”, it doesn’t buy a sleeping bag, hammock, tent- for your “free room for 4 months”, or clothes, or anything else. Enjoying your job does not mean you can afford to do it for free.
Guide on a river: 15 years experience, same company the entire time, work days (which is not just jumping in rafts with paying ‘friends’) that are often 12 hours long, I do not even make $12/hour. And for those speaking of not claiming tips- tipping is not required, so that is not guaranteed income.
Is there a list anywhere of which river guide businesses support the $15 increase and which are part of the lawsuit to prevent it? I would like to know where to put my money.
Interesting,
Although I manage a raft company and these guidelines would actually hurt our employees. Many of our guides only work the 4 months a year that we are open. Then they go play with the money that they have made. So they want to work every moment possible all summer. I try and give days off and many of them will push 3 weeks in a row before wanting a day off. (Yes it’s a lot but when you don’t have to work the rest of the year it’s what they want to do.)
Keep in mind even our rookies make more than $15 an hour. In fact we pride ourself a on being the front runner of pay in the industry.
If this was all implemented, we would have to start paying overtime. In which case we would probably hire more guides and cap hours.
I do think ski resort employees are grossly underpaid. I do think many companies I have seen do not do a good job of taking care of their employees. But in this case, I can see the reason for the appeal. Raft companies aren’t going to do a 6 day raft trip and pay their employees 120 hours to do it. With 80 of that being on overtime.
Point is, there are more angles to this than the obvious pay employees a bit more.
My thought exactly! It would be great to have an addendum to this article so we know where to book. I am actively researching a trip for next year for a multi day excursion and want to make sure I’m not inadvertently booking with the wrong company.
I am an owner of a very small raft company operating in Colorado. I am not a member of the CROA. And I pay all of my staff at least $15 an hour if not more. I operate on the premise of “you have to take care of the people who take care of you.” I am not trying to advertise for my company, but there are quite a few smaller and medium sized companies who pay at or above the $15.
Julianne Barkers’ questions are precisely mine regarding river outfitters who support and oppose the $15 minimum wage. Please publish the names of these companies as well as the membership of the Colorado River Outfitters Association so that AJ subscribers and readers can contact the outfitters and their association to express our opinions directly.
I believe AJ should assist its community in efforts to stand up, communicate and act on relevant policy issues, especially on issues immediately before us.
Do others in the AJ family agree or disagree? Thanks in advance for all replies.
Here’s a list of CROA members online: https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.agricharts.com/sites/968/Travel/Colorado%20River%20Outfiiers%20Assoc%20.pdf
This is great journalism Zak. What sticks with me—aside from the outrage of businesses built on access to our country’s most beautiful public lands hiring a firm that made its bones defiling them—is that the vaunted recreation economy is never going to take off until it pays a living wage.
Duke’s reputation in Colorado outdoor circles is less than stellar.
Employees everywhere are commodities and as such have varying degrees of value. A paper clip doesn’t have the same value as a PC and a River guide is only as valuable as the market is willing to pay. Don’t pay them enough and the business craters. They have no right to $5, 15, or $50/hr anymore than the employer has a right to 5, 15, or 50 hours of the guide’s life. Don’t like making less than $15/hr? Start your own outfitter and charge whatever you like.
Thanks Ted & Swenson, it’s not as simple as it seems. As a business owner, I have always paid more than min. wage, but it is also based on what the market will bare and as was stated O.T. is really the root issue for this industry. Could they be paid by the Excursion and maybe tied to a percentage of the revenue. The more participants, the more the Guide makes above a base pay (plus tips) for the total days of the trip.
The “One size fits all” minimum wage doesn’t work in all industries, there should be several options and based on the industry.
I am beyond happy that you are not my boss.
Great update, really appreciate AJ supporting quality reporting. Rafting and other outdoor recreation companies are in business to make money, so I can’t say I’m surprised they’re fighting legislation that would redirect money from the owners’ pockets to employees. The legal argument that the Trump Administration could create a rule exempting guides, but that the Biden Administration is overstepping it’s bounds by taking a reverse administrative action seems shaky.
Exactly, it is just an executive order reversing a previous executive order, NOT an executive order going against a LAW, which of course would be illegal on its face.
I do see the issue of multi-day trips though; the companies are going to end up paying a LOT of overtime to guides even when they are SLEEPING 7 or 8 hours a night.
Perhaps some kind of a common-sense compromise could be worked out here with the Biden administration, rather than resorting to lawsuits.
Time for the guides to walk out! Shut down commercial rafting on the Arkansas River, and throughout Colorado, for a season and let the greedy businesses fail. Come on, business owners, take care of your people, pass some of the cost on to your customers.
Having run a river outfitting business and managed field crews for a variety of outdoor organizations, the thought of paying someone less than a living wage is appalling. Its an abject failure in leadership to spend huge amounts of resources on lawsuits when you could simply plug those funds into paying reasonable wages. If you need to raise prices, so will everyone else, you can’t outsource guides…
Thanks for publishing this and getting it into the open. Truly Adventure Journalism.
Agreed. Thanks to Adventure Journal and Zak for highlighting this issue. I sent it on to The Colorado Sun and Joe Neguse, our State Representative. Hopefully, it gets lots of exposure.
Grand Canyon guides already make $15/hr with overtime. I don’t think any outfitter closed over it, but correct me if I’m wrong. It’s a minimum wage job requiring about 7 weeks of training, 3 trips are required (thats 6 weeks if you’re not motoring) and a WFR, another week.
Love the comment about rent. Outfitters due pay permit and user day fees, but they are small in comparison with the permit’s value.
As a guide, I would love to have a higher salary and not be tipped. Tips are unpredictable, and often don’t correlate with skill or trip quality. But tipping is a cultural thing, not a guide thing. Some guides do try and squeeze tips out of guests, but guests don’t have to tip.
Assuming a typical river guide works a 14 hour day, 8 hours at $15 ($120) plus 6 hours of overtime at $22.50 ($135), the minimum per day wage would be $255. The guide company pays an additional 20 to 30 % in taxes and workers comp bringing the cost to the employer to $306 to $332 per day. The TL should obviously make more bringing the cost to the employer closer to $400 per day. So a 12 day trip costs the employer 4 to 5K per guide. I’m skipping a few calculations for simplicity sake – fact is OT is actually higher because all hours above 40 per week are OT hours. Guides also get tips (mostly unclaimed) and the best guides get commissions. All of that said I agree that $15 should be the minimum wage but some amount of that cost is going to be passed on to the customer and will reduce the number of trips and tips for the guide. It also pushes river trip prices on Federal lands into elite class of customer. Big companies can absorb that but the smaller guys will lose market share to the big guys. Don’t get me wrong – I’m all in for the new rate but before everybody gets all sanctimonious consider the rest of the story.
I decided to do a little math. I am very neutral in this thought process as I try to understand both sides. I may be missing some details, but the high level must be pretty close. Employee 1 works at 50 hours per week earning $12.00 per hour with no overtime. This equals $2400.00 per month for a cost of $24,000.00 for 10 employees for 1 month. Now, employee 1 works 50 hours at 15.00 per hour plus overtime, and their take home pay rises to $3,300.00 per month. For 10 employees, this is equal to $33,000 per month, or an $9,000 per month increase for the 10 employees. According to Western Rivers website, a 5 day float trip is $1875 per person. If 15 people ride each week for 4 weeks, that is $112,500.00 per month of sales to Western. Taking out wages from the $112,500, that leaves them with $79,500.00, which would have been $88,500.00 under the $12.00, to take away all of the expenses. Food, gas, insurance, repairs to new boats, etc. The increase of $900.00 take home pay (need to allocate for taxes) to an employee is quite large, but the effect to the bottom line of the company is much more significant. I don’t think it is that easy to increase the cost of the rafting trip by 37.5% to cover the additional cost. That would take the $1875 to $2578. This is a very complicated issue for both sides.
Add increases in employer payroll taxes too, and probably other costs that are driven by employee payroll.
I think the big question is would it really be a 37.5% increase if tipping were then not necessary?
What is really surprising, well not really since most everyone just lashes out with comments without really thinking anything through anymore, and then they go off on social media rants…I digress….So, what is odd about the minimum wage discussion is no one really address the root issue with a set wage, it is always about the amount. If viewed this way, it will always be about the amount, no mater the amount. Workers want more pay and employers want more profit. It never ends if viewed in a static, set dollar number viewpoint. Hell, one quote in the article is so dumb..””Marshall Steinbaum, assistant professor of economics at the University of Utah, said that’s an argument you almost never hear from workers themselves. “There’s no sense in which raising the wages of workers harms workers,” he said.”” Well of course workers will not see how raising wages is going to harm…workers. Good Lord. Anyway, back to my premise, I am no Bernie bro but if companies would tie all compensation to performance, 90% of problems would be solved. Every business I have ever consulted or advised who actually pay workers, as part of their comp, a percentage of profits succeeds in almost all cases. Period. Management wins, owner’s win, and employees win. This works in private settings. Public companies, not as much, you have to exploit workers for shareholder gain. But I assume most of these rafting companies are privately held. Restructure your pay and tie pay to company performance and see the success. Keep bitching back and forth over a set per hour wage, and keep having these arguments.
Sounds good, cept greed will always prevent labor from seeing the books. Oh looky, I see I’ve touched on the root of the problem.
Well yeah, because humans are going to human. That problem will never be solved until the great mysterious climate change asteroid comes and wipes us off the planet. But for the time being, management that understands how to actually manage and motivate people can make it work. It’s not that hard. As a matter of fact, way more businesses than people think have built their compensation structure in such a manner. But all we hear about in the news or on blogs are the companies who just pay by the hour and how it short changes the worker. Another fact that people dismiss often, if you have a skill that others don’t have, you will make good money. Let’s be honest, people here can yap about how the guides are experienced, how they have been doing it forever, blah blah blah. At the end of the day, if they don’t work for whatever the pay is, someone else will. If the labor runs out, then wages will increase. It is simple. I’ve been on many guided trips of all sorts. Sure, some staff are better than others, but a well run company who can train a monkey can put pretty much any over-educated monkey with a maters in social studies on the lead and it will go fairly smooth. But yeah, everyone keep getting all bent out of shape and virtue signal here, that will help these poor workers.
Face it, guiding a trip is a different kind of job when it comes to pay. You have to be ON almost 24hrs/day. Yes, you sleep, but if something happens in the middle of the night, you’re working. I assume the guides get paid a flat fee per trip, and some guides on a trip are paid more than others?? Are they employees or contractors? Sounds like they’re employees.
This got me thinking about other industries that have a similar work schedule. I was a camp counselor at an overnight camp when I was a kid. Hours were just like a guide and we got a check at the end of the summer. $150 for nine weeks, baby!! OK, that was 1970….
I’d love to hear from guides for their perspective.
“Colorado Rafting Businesses Hire Right-Wing Law Firm to Keep Guide Pay Low”. This is an extraordinarily biased and leading title. High school level journalism, at best.
“Keep guide pay low”!? Let’s get real. The outfitters incur HUGE costs that most guides will never comprehend. As well as the year long all day struggle of running a business, not to mention sleepless nights. That’s right. Outfitters work ALL year round and often deal with a LOAD of stress. It looks like money coming in hand over fist because it all comes in over the summer. In reality money is being hemorged all year long. Gear is VERY expensive. In addition, buses, vans, trailers, insurance for vehicles, work comp, liability, government use fees, permits and licensing, federal state and local taxes, rent or mortage, property insurance and a WHOLE lot of other things. Outfitters don’t get days off in the summer. EVER. Or in the winter for that matter. Somebody is selling those trips and working that advertising in the off season. Customers will call any time of year and any time of day and it’s the owner outfitters that take the call. It is a TON of work and a Ton of stress and a TON of liability. When the guides are off, the outfitters are still working.
Guiding rafts is a lifestyle choice. Most guides are well compensated. At our outfit guides pull in a flat rate per trip and they are paid based on experience. Some make over $160/day in salary alone, not including tips and they only “work” 7 to 8 hour days. Guides need to stop playing the victim and realize that they do not do all of the work, They are very fairly compensated, they’re in a boat for their job, their high level of skill often comes from the outfitters training, their ojt after training is in the companies $8k boats, at the end of the day they can go indulge in uninhibited drug and alcohol abuse while participating in guide orgies or hooking up with the infatuated custy because if they show up late with their eyes rolling back in their heads in the morning they get sent home whereas the owner/outfitter behaving like that would risk their lifetimes worth of work, not just their fun summer job. If you want the pay and security of a real job then get a real job. I can tell you from personal experience, most guides aren’t worth what they get paid! Most are dysfunctional, self-entitled sociopaths that suck at everyday life. Sorry if I pissed you off or made you cry, NOT REALLY. Snowflakes. -Soooooooo happy to be OUT of the business
And so happy to have you OUT of the business. I cannot imagine an owner who has such a low opinion of his employees. Good riddance!!!
Hemorged ??
I never owned, I managed a company and seen 1st hand what medium sized company owners go through. I’d say they don’t make enough for the bullshit they have to endure. I’d much rather just be a guide, I don’t think you could pay me enough to own.
Manage or run a company of your own for a while if it’s so easy. Then hire a 2nd year guide who thinks they are unique to the world let alone the river, offer them good pay. Then when you think you have a solid employee, they show up late, then late and hung over, then leave early without doing their share of the work, then two weeks into it want a raise, then want the 4th off for a “wedding”, then get busted smoking weed by a guest, in addition to declaring their early departure to go run some other rivers. I have a LOW opinion of anyone who chooses such an amazing job and then acts like an entitled asshole wanting more than they deserve and screwing the company they work for at the same time. Should I have had a higher opinion of this classic modern guide example? These “guides”, if you can even call them that are NOT cut from the same mold as the old school guide. Simply put, you GET to guide boats for a job. If you’re in it for the money and not the love of being outdoors and the sheer joy of showing others a good time, then guiding is NOT for you.
Understand this: You’re the idiots that created these “rich” huge company owners when you demanded more more more and abandoned the medium and small outfits. When you work for and support the BIG companies you support the “Duke’s”. You’re driving the true river outfitters out and making rich a$$holes just like Duke up and down rivers everywhere and especially down there on the Arkansas River. They have a LOT more going on than just river trips. Didn’t the vacation rentals, zippy rides, ATV, jeep tours, and bars tip you off? It’s not about the river anymore $$$. The larger the company the more disposable the guides are. However, in the context of this article Duke is correct. This stands to destroy the overnight river trip business across the country for all outfitters. If you don’t like what guiding pays or the “rich” owners, which most are not, then find something else to do for living. The company I once managed said they can’t offer overnights anymore, they’ve cut their staff for 2022 and they are jacking prices way up this year(boat loads of Karen’s) and they are only employing guides that train through them. They’ve got a big training class this season and have been turning away guides from other companies. But hey, it looks like AVA and other’s just like him will be hiring! Good luck!
Sorry Paul that Dick told you a truth about life. You know why businesses don’t shell out high per hour wages to low-skilled workers, because it won’t change much of anything. Not all hourly workers and service workers fit what I am about to say, but most do and Dick is right, most show up late, have addiction issues, have mental issues, and you could pay $100 per hour and in short time they’d F up and just quit showing up one day. That’s usually how older, low-skilled workers have stayed older and low-skilled. They never got their sh!t together. Please don’t confuse having a low opinion of employees and having an accurate view of employees.
Well I have never run a business that employees a large number of workers, so you probably have a point. And I am NOT advocating that the guides each be paid $15+ per hour for every hour of a multi-day trip. The original purpose of overtime pay laws was to discourage employers from abusing their employees by making them work 10, 12 or more hours in a day without any (or much) prior notice. But these laws were aimed at “normal” workers who show up in the morning, work during the day, and then go home at night to their own homes. Multi-day guided rafting, backpacking, or other kinds of outdoor adventure trips are very different, and I DO think there needs to be some flexibility in the law rather than just a “one size fits all” requirement.
I am on board with that. Employees who do what they are hired to do and even go above and beyond need to be treated fairly and more than fairly. I agree, and yes, certain industries, i.e. outdoors especially, have a lot of unique issues that need some imagination to make all parties happy. I strive for companies and employees to be in it together, the business couldn’t function without good employees and the employees can’t have gainful employment without a company providing the opportunity. Unfortunately, hourly wage and this topic ultimately creates a hostile environment and then no one wins. Everyone needs to be better.
I wrote AVA to express my thoughts about this issue and the article – here is their response:
“Thank you for the email. I understand the optics on the surface don’t look good. I hope you’ll allow me a moment and an open mind.
Here are our issues:
1) The fundamental issue Is overnights. Under this mandate overnights could not comply. Example a 6 day overnight would require 80 hours minimum of overtime pay. This would put pricing past all Americans expect the 1%.
Some companies like OARS only do overnights. They employ 400 outdoor employees. They’re multi generational family owned business. Do they go out of business? Do they still employ 400 staff who love the outdoors?
2) We compete against 120 other outfitters. Market forces have pushed us well past $15.
This is not about $15.
3) This is being done by the Labor Department not elected officials. It would be one thing if elected officials put this forward. We would of had an opportunity to participate in the democratic process.
4) We’ve been categorized as a contractor when we’ve never enjoyed a contract. We are permit holders and we are mandated rules and regulations by the government with no contract.
So to call us contractors is a large reach.
We would simply like to protect overnights and give our guides options.
If this goes through overnights would go away. Seasonal guides would be mandated to a 4 day work week. We’d simply have to hire more guides.
The days of a guide coming working multiple days, banking cash then taking the fall off to go to school or paddle in other countries would be gone.
5) The legal team has nothing to do with wether this is wrong or right. Our industry is small and fragile. The PLG specializes in Government overreach. That’s what this is about. We just want to protect parts of our industry from going away.
I realize that Zac wants to write articles and get clicks to further his career as a journalist but there is more at stake here than $15. We are not the villains here.
I know you have a choice who you choose to recreate with in our industry. My only hope is you take the time to make that a reality. Our industry depends on it.
All the best
Duke”
This is honestly hilarious and pathetic. I worked for both AVA for some years and then moved onto OARS.
First, in response to #4, I’m a little confused, but in the years I worked there I maybe did 3 overnights – Duke keeps droning on about them, but I never banked on them being my moneymaker. I was always hoping to get two trips in one day. Literally hoped I wouldn’t get an overnight-small group, less pay, only a small chance for a tip.
And as for #1… with OARS, Duke, what?
OARS is HUGE. You only have to do a google search to know that they do not only do overnights. California, they do daily trips! Even in Utah, I think they run daily trips. Also, yeah they have a family business, but each part is run separately, and they make sure you are family, and guess what? You meet your boss and you know who he/she is!
This is an embarrassing response from Duke of AVA. Full of spelling and grammatical errors; I would expect better from the person speaking on behalf of this company to the public. And to accuse someone of writing an article motivated by personal aspirations is really in bad taste, and very low. He actually makes some good points, content-wise, but the tone of the response is petty and not a good look for AVA. I am very quickly becoming very disappointed in this company.
So we have an operation that pays between $160 and $180 a day for multi-day guided programs. The guides also get tips.
The real issue is overtime. If you were to pay a guide $15 an hour for 16 hours, the cost would be $240 a day. We hit overtime at 40 hours. So you hit that on Day 3. Half the day is at $120, and then the other half is at $180, so day 3 is $300. Day 4 through 7 is $360 a day.
So to pay a guide for one week, the cost will be $2220 vs. $180 a day at $1260.
Most raft companies can’t afford that without pumping up prices…which we can do, and really would be better for the guides…that stay employed. But how many people can afford a raft trip after a 76% bump when most can’t afford our prices already…?
So if there are less clients buying trips, that means less guides. Unless a company just leans into day trips and cuts their overnight programs and does everything it can to ensure that there’s no overtime.
So basically “if we have to pay our guides for the hours they work, then we don’t have a viable business” …
The Leadville Herald wrote a more complete piece – It will be interesting to see where this goes.
https://www.leadvilleherald.com/free_content/article_8f6a7a36-5dc3-11ec-94ec-737bf235b1f4.html
When I want a hamburger, I expect to pay for a hamburger. Not for the mistakes of those who demand that everyone pay more for a hamburger to make themselves feel better by pretending they know how much more I should be forced to pay for a hamburger. Funny thing about people who insist on forcing people to pay higher prices- those people never choose to freely and willingly volunteer to pay more out of their own pockets. How many people have you seen pay more at the store or the restaurant so that others can have more money than they are being paid? Never. So, obviously, here we have an issue that does not require more government regulation. In fact, why are prices of everything increasing at rates higher and higher than anytime in the last several decades? When the cost of something increases, eventually the price increases or the item cannot be produced. The so-called economics professor from the University of Utah is wrong to say that workers are not harmed by forcing the prices of wages to be higher. Raising wages ultimately increases the costs of everything. Actually, the push for increasing minimum wages is largely driven by organized labor and government unions. Union wages are based upon the minimum wage. So the government union worker who is now already over-paid at $30 per hour hour now gets a pay increase every time the minimum wage is increased. So, everyone clamoring for increased minimum wage is causing the prices of everything to go up, and the costs paid to government union workers auto get automatic pay raises at the expense of everybody else. In turn, the quality of life decreases and the cost of living increases, exactly the opposite of the lies told about those demand increasing the minimum wage.
Federal appeals court sides with rafting outfitters- https://coloradosun.com/2022/02/18/colorado-rafting-outfitters-wage-lawsuit-appeal/
I have a hard time feeling bad for a business that relies on the government to provide access to a resource being hit with increased governmental regulation. At the same time, as a former river guide, I know that guides are not “working” every minute or even hour of the day they are on the river. The solution is to pay guides for the time they are actually guiding or doing activity directly related to guiding. Don’t pay guides to eat lunch (who gets paid to eat lunch?) or sleep or travel between trips (you get paid to drive to work?). Loading rafts, cleaning rafts etc. counts as work.